Why is it... (n00b weight question)

[djoptix]

...that my Saracen Rufftrax frame (mid 90s) is just over 3kg, badged as "chromoly butted Tange MTB"; my unbranded Carrera purple Pootler (similar vintage) is 2.6kg, badged as "cr-mo plain gauge tubing, Tange MTB"? I thought butting should equal less weight, but this suggests otherwise...?

I was going to build up the Saracen but I'm now wondering about staying purple!

FWIW they are the same size, about a 20" BB-TT.

 

[FluffyChicken]

...that my Saracen Rufftrax frame (mid 90s) is just over 3kg, badged as "chromoly butted Tange MTB"; my unbranded Carrera purple Pootler (similar vintage) is 2.6kg, badged as "cr-mo plain gauge tubing, Tange MTB"? I thought butting should equal less weight, but this suggests otherwise...?

I was going to build up the Saracen but I'm now wondering about staying purple!

FWIW they are the same size, about a 20" BB-TT.

Where in 'chromoly butted Tange MTB' does it say double butted

It could well be the seat tube that is butted externally in one place?
I wouldn't worry I have a 1992 frame that's triple butted and still weighs about 5.5lb at 18.5"

 

[coomber]

Saracens were quite heavy. Great frames though.

Not sure but the butting might only be on the main tubes, that'll add some weight to the rear and then overall.

I vote saracen

 

[WD Pro]

I posted this on the frame listings thread, it carried a similay decal / identification to what you quote :

1990 ish (non afterburner rear stays) Marin. Tange double butted. Oversize down tube. 17.5” (center to center) frame size. Zolatone paint. No forks but with DX steel headset cups. 2.5Kg / 5.51Lb

Not the lightest thing around then ...

WD

 

[Easy_Rider]

My old 1991 Traverese Hydrotech Competition e-stay Frame 17" weighed in at 2.85kg
Early 90's Saracens are battleships

They dropped weighed on 93 and 94 bikes though.

 

[djoptix]

Where in 'chromoly butted Tange MTB' does it say double butted

I thought that any degree of butting would mean lower weight?

 

[FairfaxPat]

Butted tubes means they are thicker at one end (butted) or both ends (double butted) to enable welding, while being lighter in the middle. However, there are different size (diameter) tubes and different thickness (gauge) tubes in that equation as well. Heavier gauge butted tubes weigh more than the thinner gauge ones. Also, the rear triangle on some frames often outweighs the main diamond, depending what chain and seat stay tubes they use. Seat and chain stay tubes have to be thicker to achieve strength because the are small diameter, and they are straight gauge and heavy.

 

[xerxes]

There's a nice explanation about frame materials and butting here: http://www.brightspoke.com/c/understanding/bike-frame-materials.html

Essentially, all steel alloys weigh roughly the same, so the only way to make a steel frame lighter, is to use less material. Double and tripple butting are generally an indication of a good quality frame. However, you might make a double butted tube that has thicker walls both in the middle and at the ends, if you wanted it to be stiffer and/or more durable than a thinner walled double butted tube, but with a weight penalty, obviously.

 

[chaser]

The Rufftrax is an entry level Saracen bike, so I think that only one tube on the frame is Tange DB cromo.

Does the frame decal say Tange double butted tube or tubes.
There are 3 levels in the Saracen 'sport' range.

1. One Tange DB tube
2. Three Tange DB tubes [main frame]
3. Tange DB frame tubes [all of them inc stays etc..]

My 1997 Protrax weighs about 2.2kg, my 1996 Terratrax weighs 2.6kg.

If it's any consolation, a lot of new steel frames [even Reynolds 853] like the Orange R8 now weigh more than 5lbs due to the new CEN safety standards! Cotic seem to have kept their Soul down to about 4.6lbs

Hope this helps to explain the weight difference.

Cheers,

Chaser.

 

[drystonepaul]

My bottom of the 1991 range Saracen Sahara, hilariously states it's 'Tange Double Butted Cromoly Tubing' in the form of rather brilliant comic book graphics. While I don't doubt that there will be a bit a butting in there somewhere, you wouldn't know it from it's reassuringly tank like weight.

It remains an entertaining bike despite being the 'butt' of a few jokes, mostly from MrK.

My 1997 Saracen Protrax is also much lighter by the way...